SGA: How did you hear about Small Giants Academy and what we do, and why did you become involved?
During the pandemic I was involved in an Australia Council for the Arts leadership program. That opened my eyes to different ways of thinking and being and doing. I wanted to continue that focus. So much of the work that I do is creative but it’s also the leadership of creativity. I work with small- and large-scale teams and projects. So for me it’s been important to be able to combine the work that I do in storymaking with leadership.
I completed The Interconnected Leader program last year. I was finishing a six-month national tour of a theatre show called Stardust and The Mission. A double bill of two one-man shows, they’re two stories. We toured that around Australia to 32 cities. That particular iteration was about, again, two-and-a-half years as a process. And so I was coming off the back of that Iwas pretty burnt out, and I needed to think about what I was doing and how I could show up a bit better in life. So that’s what continues to hold my gaze.
What was it about The Interconnected Leader that spoke to you?
Right from the get-go, the facilitation and the space that was created. Space holding and what that means and what that can look like. It felt really warm and welcoming. And it felt like a place where everyone in the group, it didn’t matter who they were or where they came from, could happily exist in the one space despite having limited connection in a professional sense, because of the variety of different industries that were represented. It was the quality of the space that has enabled the sustainability of the relationships.
What set the program apart was the way in which the conversations were held and could flow from the material that was presented. I wanted to participate and show up and encourage other people to. At the end of the 12 weeks we had a fantastic group. And beautiful connections that continue to trickle on to this day, which is really nice.
Dreaming is free. If you could change one element of the system as it is now, what would you change?
The value of storytelling, the value of a story and storymaking and its impact.
Tell me about that.
I guess the enquiry that I have set up through the Storymakers Institute for myself and for everyone else, and for everyone who listens to the show, is about the role of story as a storymaker and our role and our impact on the world. And the way in which story and the world both reflect and impact each other. Given that narrative and story is one of the dominant strands of our world, it feels to me that conversations around how story is made and how story is projected, and the narratives that then unfold from it, and the influences of that…it felt important for me to dive into that. So that’s what the show’s really about. And the show features thought leaders, journalists and storymakers.
Storymaking for me is a very active process, and it involves a level of producing which is about process rather than outcome. And storymaking is vastly different to storytelling in the sense that storytelling for me feels like the end result, whereas storymaking encompasses all of the process of that creation. Which influences the outcome ultimately. So the way in which you make a story affects the outcome of it. Whether you’re creating a documentary, a theatre show, a book. There’s a process that sits behind the storytelling, which is clearly going to have a great level of impact on what people experience at the end of the day.
I also feel that storymaking, and storytelling as an outcome, is clearly linked to identity as an individual, as a community, as a nation, as a global society. It’s not valued to the extent as in a professional context as any other professional outcome or profession exists. Storymaking exists in this other space that is heavily reliant on grants and government funding. I think that if people really appreciated the process, they might have a greater appreciation of the outcome. And then have a willingness to properly support that process. There’s an extraordinary amount of unrecognized unpaid labour in storymaking. When someone buys a 10-dollar ticket to something, the exchange is not an equal one.
Leading on from here, how about a book, poem or film that’s made a profound impact on you?
Probably the most profound book I’ve read in the last 12 months – there are two of them. They’re both by Charles Eisenstein. The More Beautiful World Our Hearts Know Is Possible and Sacred Economics. Charles Eisenstein is an American thinker. He’s written a number of books about, as the title says, a more beautiful world that our hearts know is possible. It’s a heart-centred vision of what the world is currently, but what the future could be if we were to slightly shift the dial on the way in which we go about business and about life. His writing is deeply profound. Sacred Economics is looking at the things we value in a monetary capacity. And how we got to where we are, and where we could go if we were to create a more just, more values-oriented society that honours contribution in a variety of its forms.
What advice would you give a school leaver now? What would you tell your younger self? But they’re two different questions.
They are two different things. Yes, “You’re more than your score and you should go and explore the world a bit,” is probably what I would say to myself. To a school leaver I’d say, “You’re going to take so many varied and interesting pathways through life. So just start at one of them and just see where it goes.”
I think I had a really clear idea of what I was going to do in life: I was going to study music and I was going to become a French horn player in an orchestra like the Melbourne Symphony Orchestra. And by my fourth year of uni that idea was crashing and burning. (laughs) I didn’t become a professional orchestral horn player. I’ve still got the horn. I could still pursue it if I wanted to. But I’ve morphed off in more interesting directions.
I played French horn.
Did you? No way!
I did. I was piano, violin and French horn. I wasn’t the most popular kid at school as you can imagine.
(laughs)
It’s a distinct instrument. It’s a very noble instrument. I’m reading a new book at the moment, which has been talking about what happens when you pursue things for excellence. And how that can deplete your enjoyment of the instrument. That was certainly my experience, and I’m still navigating some years later. How do I enjoy music and in what form and what format? So at the moment I’m conducting an inclusive orchestra called Awkwardstra.
Oh wow.
On a Monday night. Welcome to anyone, all adults who want to learn but don’t have a place to play with other people. And yeah, we’re having a great time, playing through great music and growing together as an ensemble. It’s really rewarding. It’s not about excellence and perfectionism. It’s about people being able to disappear for a few hours out of their normal lives, whatever stresses and issues they have. And they can just focus on playing and having a great time.
I love that. I feel like the scariest part of that is just turning up. Participation’s important. The scariest bit might be taking that first step in the door and then it’s a big warm hug, isn’t it?
Yeah that’s right. Most of the work is really about acknowledging people’s presence in the space and acknowledging their contribution to the sound. We’ll see how far we can take the group. But even in the space of a few weeks what I’ve noticed is because of the environment created, we’re able to progress quickly and develop the musicianship in a, efficient kind of way. That’s partially because of that’s my training of going in and being able to do that. But I think it’s also about the environment that’s created and making people feel like they’re contributing to a larger whole. And having a laugh about it too.
I love that. Okay, last one. Where do you go when you need to tap into your inner peace?
(laughs)
Does it never happen?
I need that now. I’m going to be so stereotypical. I have a religious date with a yoga class on a Saturday morning. (laughs) Where the same group of people come together and we do the thing. And then we go out for coffee afterwards. The things I enjoy are the regular rituals of the moment and of life. And particularly in the mornings and I’d say that that is where I find that. My second thing is singing around the piano with other people.
How often do you get to do that? And who sings with you?
Not often enough. But honestly anyone who wants to. I’ve got some great musical friends. And any chance we get together to be able to have a sing is just completely life affirming. It opens the heart, the spirit. That’s something I need to do more than I do, but when I do it I just love it.
I’ve just received this message from another creative friend who has just sent me this message. “Creative people need time to sit around and do nothing.” It’s almost like my ideas have to come from the blank space.
To learn more about The Interconnected Leader, click here.
