Toad Dell, co-founder of PermaQueer and graduate of Mastery of Business & Empathy in 2022, chats to Kirsty de Garis about what it means to be "radical in a sneaky way".
Kirsty de Garis: How did you create PermaQueer?
Toad Dell: It’s been an emergent process. We’ve been trying to work out how we do this work well. My partner, Guy Ritani, comes from more of a business background and we both come from activist backgrounds and queer communities. We both did a permaculture course just prior to lockdown in Melbourne. I thought it was a novel, hippy thing that wouldn’t have any meaningful impact on my life or the world around me, but casually we built food systems in our course. We were on a quarter-acre block in our permaculture share house. We grew a lot of our own food, we were a distribution point for a permaculture farm that used us as a way to distribute veggie boxes.
We did all these cute things that I thought were really lovely but of no huge importance. And then lockdown happened, and we had food security. And even though Guy and I probably earned the least of all of our friends, we had the most housing security, food security, community sufficiency. We saw clearly how, when systems shook and shuddered because of the pandemic or climate issues our communities were vulnerable.
Guy’s a Kiwi. A lot of Guy’s friends had quite stable jobs and had to move back to New Zealand. A lot of our friends became unhoused and had no real way to feed themselves during lockdown. So part of our permaculture design when I was living in that share house was working with a dumpster diving redistribution network. We created this whole “food is free” network, which is fantastic.
We didn’t know how to structure a business. We are deeply inspired by Aunty Terri Waller from SevGen: that’s why I did the Mastery of Business & Empathy. Understanding that whilst I don’t super love capitalism, money is important as it’s a means to tangibly resource our communities and ourselves. We can’t be preaching about sustainability if we’re living well below the breadline. So how do we make this in a way that’s restorative to the earth, we’re being looked after ourselves as well as our immediate community, and it’s also fair share; we’re able to re-distribute the surplus into our communities and we’re able to do this in a systems perspective. How we design it must inherently meet those functions.
That’s what drew me to the MBE. Coming from the background that I did, it was a really good provocation, being in spaces with people who I never would have shared space with before. And this real sense of wildly different industries – being with people who were putting their money where their mouth is, trying to redesign those industries to be regenerative was really powerful. There’s something to be said for the way the MBE built meaningful solidarity and community, not in a siloed, stratified way but across varying communities of people. That was a powerful thing the MBE did.
How did that become something tangible and felt?
There’s the immediate care and support that people meet you with. You’re constantly having dialogue with people who are from wildly different industries like policing, or insurance. They’re asking me really deep questions about my work, the implications of it, making connections to other industries, other people who might be able to find us funding. There’s a genuine desire towards mutual aid which was really exciting.
That was the immediate thing, but we did the wisdom counsel. That’s recorded and on Mighty Networks. We shared the work we’re doing and the work we’re wanting to move towards and people came and gave us feedback. That was fantastic to be able to have people from a much more conservative perspective say,
“This is great, you will struggle in these areas, this is how you can be radical in a sneaky way.”
How did you hear about the MBE?
I heard of it through Tavale Ilalio from Mahana Culture and Morag Gamble from the Ethos Foundation. I remember getting an email from Mele-Ane Havea. I had a chat with her because I was on Centrelink and working a part-time job. I was nervous about doing the MBE because of the financial side. Having a scholarship and a payment plan made it accessible for me, even though I’m still paying it off. Those options made it possible and doable for me.
I would love to tell our community a bit about the content, which is different from an MBA. What stood out for you the most in the curriculum?
One of the most impactful things for me was one of the first few sessions: the social dynamics and ecological reality of it. It was so useful to demystify business. Coming out of the MBE, I still don’t really know how to do a spreadsheet or register a business name. But it’s demystified it because it’s not a scary thing to learn for myself. Also it has connected many of my permaculture ethics frameworks to business. It’s given me a way of approaching business design in a way that’s regenerative and seeing people out there who are pushing for that as well.
How do you apply the work? What’s changed in your perspective since completing the MBE?
It has allowed me to fill out a lot more economic frameworks. I was given a load of economic frameworks that I could apply permaculture to and that was really useful. The MBE has shifted how I relate to business, and I don’t want to say capitalism, but it’s shifted how I relate to business in general.
What sort of relationship did you build with fellow students?
I’m still in regular contact with a number of them who give me ongoing support and advice, which is fantastic. I also feel like I can reach out. I’ve started a “myco-cycling” social enterprise under PermaQueer. I want to embed queer communities into this work: I don’t want the same voices who got us into this mess to be leading us out of it.
I can reach out to a few people and brainstorm for feedback. That’s really helpful, it’s a safety net that whatever direction I move in, I have incredible support from industry specialists.
How have you grown as a person through the MBE?
I like that question. There is something really beautiful about cumulative interest. You’re showing up for something crunchy but the social container is held and facilitated so well, you look forward to being challenged. It’s helped to foster a lot of agency and self-determination in me. I’ve come away with the sense that I’ve got to go out and do it, but there’s support for me. It’s that kind of thinking: just figure it out.
If you’re looking for a course that teaches you to do spreadsheets and tax returns, this isn’t the course. But if you’re looking for a course that can meaningfully connect you to people who are all trying to awkwardly step into a regenerative way of being and be held in a space that fosters a desire to grow and change and do that with people, it’s an incredible course. And it’s been so good at creating an opportunity for people to grow despite the process itself being inherently awkward.
Find out more about the Mastery of Business & Empathy and register your interest to join the cohort in 2024.
